The former Prime Minister says in an interview with THE PAS, which can not be left to the judges the composition of electoral lists of parties
The former Prime Minister Felipe Gonzalez believes the Spaniard politician panorama moving towards a “italianizacin, with no clear mayoras Parliament”. Is very clear that Susana Daz staying in Andalusia, whatever happens in elections Prximo Sunday bet on his victory and, though not explicitly say so, shows that it is an established leader, while Pedro Sanchez lacks still travel. In a long conversation held with THE PAS on wednesday last, Gonzalez recalled that takes away 19 years of institutional life, but answered all questions about national or international news.
Question. How sees the current political situation in Spain?
Answer. Some interesting qualify, so moved. Within a year we’ll probably with a sort of Italian political spectrum. If evolution is consolidated, because the whole situation is too lquida to forecast, since we have four political forces, four more ms ms pequeas a parliamentary spectrum in which there will be no mayoras. So I call a distribution policy Italian. With one difference, that we are not Italians.
Q. That’s good or bad?
A. has Good things and bad things. We are more influenced by the tragic sense of Unamuno’s existence, and besides ms in the state believe that Italians, even if we criticize a lot. The Italians are more fun, believe less in the State … may be that Renzi appears as the great reformer, and his will, and to give the passage of major reform pact with Berlusconi. That scenario for us is unimaginable.
Q. LATEST surveys cudruple speak of a tie. Have imagined this scenario before?
A. No. If we are going to a cudruple tie … I think that will go recolocndose, although there will be four games with strong parliamentary representation. This story is surpassing that bipartisanship will be true for a while, so I speak Italian model. The bipartisanship was not invented by anyone, it was a decision librrima citizens, because when UCD Adolfo Suarez appears with 35.5% of the vote, and the Socialist Party, which I headed, with 29.5% There was a 65% parliamentary representation and nobody imagined. The electoral behavior was very European, with a center-left social majority, I think it’s still true.
Q. is governable this new scenario politician quadripartite?
A. Est difficult. But the important thing is that it is the citizens who are entitled to decide, using his personal sovereign, quin represents in Parliament. If anyone has the temptation to say that it will be able to go wrong, I aadira they are the only ones entitled to make mistakes or hit . therefore welcome the possibility of citizens to vote as they please, which is the possibility that has given them a mode of 78. habamos never had a regime that gave this possibility from the Constitution of 1812. I am proud of that regime. What I claim as giving the opportunity to the citizens to vote as they please. And if you believe that after the vote has not been timely, as seems to believe now respect of bipartisanship, it is they who decide how to vote again .
P . Lack leadership?
A. S. Although it now seems that the only way to build leadership is to despise the concept … But there is a crisis of leadership, no doubt.
Q. Estn doors elections in Andalusia. Susana Daz achieve enough votes to govern? And if not, with quin must agree and with whom not?
A. First of all I would like to explain that the leadership crisis does not match the personality of Susana Daz, which s holds undisputed leadership and demonstrates every day, even in their body language. Susana has a very good chance, and as I wish, to have a majority rule that allows . She has decided to quin will agree or not, and I respect that. Not to agree with the PP or can; as he remains ah what will draw Citizens and left from his former partners who have not gone through the line of can, if he wants to agree and need to agree . I’m not going to get into that. It seems much more important what has been decided, and there are people who question it, about commitment to Andalusia without alternative.
Q. He sees making the jump to Madrid?
A. I see leading Andalusia, even if she did not win. Sometimes I allow myself to think and sometimes I talk reporting. In this case Telling:..? S your commitment will be to Andalusia without alternative
P Y ms later
R. In three, four or five years, I do not exclude. But Susana Daz is committed to Andalusia, and background.
Q. How can the traditional parties regain lost credibility?
R . First, there must be wrong; have to make an effort Democratic regeneration without making mistakes. Estn curious committing mistakes, even in the Democratic regeneration effort. A m I worry more the problem of weakening institutions for their instrumentalizacin, that electoral outcome. It is the instrumentalizacin of institutions to the policy struggle, be they the Tax Office or Polica under the Ministry of Interior or Justice itself. And if in addition there are parties in crisis, this poses a serious and worrying ms outlook.
Q. A loss of credibility that has contributed the feeling that in this country there is a widespread corruption. What politicians have to do, especially the PP and the PSOE?
A. Corruption is a constant struggle. The first thing to do is set some differences. I have been now taking a coffee with Manolo Chaves, who have seen that attack these days or what instrumentalized in elections in Andalusia. He was minister mo. There are honest people in terms of personnel and human, and yet receives the same treatment, even politician, that those who have stayed with public money. It is a TUMT revoltum. The second: the political parties have to make a serious exercise to review some of the shortcomings of institutional performance. An example is Chaves, an absolutely ntegra person.
Q. But that has policy responsibility in some situations where there have been abuses.
R. Do not estn asking a policy, but criminal liability. That is the terrible confusion. In the event that would have policy responsibility, which also I doubt regarding the events under investigation, what is impressive is that the policy becomes criminal liability. And the politicians what instrumentalicemos, here as others, without making a clear differentiation of what is happening, is very delicate. The fight against corruption means that they are not exempt from liability those who have abused the public money to enrich themselves or enrich friends, I does not matter, because they confuse everything. Even for general causes which have no basis to open. This is tricky, and I have to correct the Justice itself.
Q. We have spent many years with a high degree of instrumentalizacin Justice …
A. There instrumentalizacin of Justice, including the Ministry of Interior and the Polica. When I read the newspaper in the morning I say: What is happening? Some things have to be reformed. The reports of the Judicial Polica, is called as it is called, are reports describing facts or qualifying events? I see many of these reports qualifying events, which can only become a judge.
Q. The PSOE and the PP have helped to politicize justice, control of the Council General of the Judiciary (GCJ).
A. Absolutely, you have to correct some of the current performances for the benefit of an independent judiciary. But that does not depend on the composition of GCJ. Perhaps the council should ask him to be more rigorous in the exercise of its function of government by judges, because the independence of the judiciary is not independent of GCJ, is that of each judge or in court. Of course we must make reforms to accelerate the judicial process, or modify the figure of the accused. Here estn all persons charged with the same brush. And that’s not fair. Even the investigating judge can not decide on fundamental rights, because it closely involved in the process.
Q. What is the time a politician should resign for being immersed in a judicial process?
A. If you aplicramos the Constitution strictly, at the time it was doomed, because justice will decide if disabled or not . We had the first accused, tried and acquitted, who was the president of Castilla-Len, Demetrio Madrid. The first day they did the imputation, the lord Aznar PIDI the dimisin and consigui, and after it that no tena any responsibility from the human point of view and politician. Obviously, no one repar the damage. In the strict constitutional sense will ace, but I think it depends not only on justice. The political forces have perseverance and awareness Cundo have to replace a leader because it is not reliable. The regeneration of the politico-Democratic life depends on it is understood that. No har lack a judge tell you what person can not go on a list because sometimes the discretion of the judge is inconsistent with the free Democratic representation. It must be the policy force itself who says it.
Q. means that parties estn overreacting?
A. Not only sobreactan, but they are wrong. Not solve the problem, complicated. Just imagine that I am a judge unholy , which have a defined criterion politician and give me the immense power that, for the sake of opening a procedure and charge a person, I avoid to go in a list. Is fantstico. If the judge is spotless, there will be no problem, because they take very seriously what are the effects it produces, but can not.
Q. But now the parties say that they will put as standard or an accused on their lists. He considers it a mistake?
A. Absolutely an error .
Q. Changing topic. Must reform the Constitution?
A. No doubt.
Q. In what sense?
A. In many senses. The Eighth title to federalize, regarding the succession line … In a few things. The problem when you talk about the reform of the Constitution is that others tell you to say specific topics. And I have an enumeration, but I will not do just that. Clearly, to give life to the Constitution over the next 25 or 30 years to do as all the countries that have really creed in its constitutional framework and enabling framework. We must change what is obsolete. I want a process of reflection is opened between the political forces and interested people can make things.
Q. There politician room right now to change the Constitution?
A. No. But the distance between the political forces, except for reasons of artifice, it is impossible to be greater than the distance bean in 75-76. Impossible. I was processed on May 76, with a petition of jail. Say that now the atmosphere is less favorable than when we did is an artifice.
Q. You have to sit?
A. Please! When leaving a floor debate, however bitter it and much crispacin display in the Hall of Lost Steps people meet and talk in a way that was previously inconceivable. Then had a terrible suspicion about the origin of each. If you tell me if there is room for consensus, I say no. But you have to create it.
Q. LATEST polls in Catalonia show that the sovereignist spirit deflates. Qu reflection occurs you?
A. It seems quite logical that to happen, though still not finished this process, that basically a problem of desafeccin not is fixed and has divided the Catalan society, even within the family. That process desafeccin and fracture is what seems more serious. There is a tipping point and suddenly a new fact that makes recovery that passion appears, it may be people is more concerned about what is suffering, the loss of certain fundamental rights.: the right to free, universal health care and the right to an education that equals opportunity. I worry less the politician panorama that feeling of dispossession on things estn going down the drain.
Q. What is is going down the drain?
A. A national health system and free and compulsory education to 16 years. I’m not talking about a specific law. I will not make the law again I did in ’83, will be absurd. Even see absurd debates that arise in educational issues, such as 3 + 2 in college. The bottom line is if equal opportunities for talent. No matter if it’s 3 + 2 or 4 + 1. Until you focus in that sense, we will be right. The divestiture is why.
Q. Anyway, after this crisis, there appears to have been reinvented social democracy.
R. No, it has not been reinvented.
Q. What now propose the Social Democrats parties have agreed to the policy of austerity?
A. I’m not sure they have agreed. What they have not offered an alternative with enough courage to defend it. I talked to all European Social Democrats leaders from French to German through the south, and none agreed. Another thing is if Tenan ability to resist.
Q. But without reforms Manuel Valls, France never started.
R. Definitely. Valls proposes structural reforms to France at the same time increasing the effort in education, therefore, formation of human capital. In France there is a corporate crust that does not allow people to have successful and innovative initiatives replace those that have been ATRS or have not hustler. From this point of view is a very conservative pas. The policies and union elites, econmicas, financial resist you have that upward and downward mobility. Take a picture in the top 30 US companies in the year 80, and are now the first 30. And how many have been replaced vern and cules. And do exactly the same exercise in Europe. Vern and Europe, structurally, there prevents upward and downward mobility. The merit and innovation awards No seriously, and the corporation is defended.
Q. And how fit ah social democracy?
R. Social democracy has the obligation, and is probably the mistake she has made the Government of SYRIZA, to offer a social pact allowing century Europeans believe that the reforms will make us compete in the global economy creating decent jobs. Ligand retribution, most of retribution, productivity, thus dignifying employment. The first is to compete in the global economy, then a surplus that allows us to defend social cohesion will create at least as important pillars as health and education. I’m not making a speech, I’m prioritizing. The social market economy, which is either the identity of Europe, is not a fixed model, is a permanent objective. But you have to use the different moments in history. I defend the market economy, efficient and competitive as the only instrument to really more equal opportunities for people.
Q. Changing the subject again, see how the two new parties that have now entered the fray, can and Citizens? Apparently occupy the left and right of the PSOE.
A. S, of course. I think we is doing a fast effort to reinvent itself to not appear as an alternative to overly radical left, and are entitled to. Some things seem less logics. When I decan I was a friend of Willy Brandt and receive its influence, which was more or less true, ms well sents me proud of that. Do not rejected. What you should not do is never reject their friends, their origins or their inspiring.
The case of Citizens has been a subsequent surprise, but similar to the can, which breaks into the politician panorama trying, and I think smart, occupy a space of centrality that radicalization to the right of the PP has abandoned. And he has abandoned the understanding, and it is wrong, in that space of centrality was not going to take the PSOE because he was concerned with can. And suddenly, a proposal that directs your attention to this area of centrality and see the reactions of PP, which I find quite absurd appears. “Those Catalans, these ciutadans” which says that wonderful spokesperson they have. They know that in the whole of Spain it has always felt a special gratitude for the Catalans, taking Catalan identity, have been concerned about the fate of Spain. A Ernest Lluch People wanted before ETA killed him. Why? Because it was a Catalan who Refills health system that nobody imagined that We could have .
Q. Pedro Sanchez is consolidated as leader of the PSOE?
A. It is consolidating, seems very clear. When some people question the leadership of Pedro Sanchez, is entitled to, but Just imagine that Mariano Rajoy has 11 years leading the PP, and leadership characteristics are perfectly describable. Pedro Sanchez is being consolidated, without a doubt. Missing route to finish consolidate? Without a doubt.
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